Beautiful Aspen trees, eh? Love the lines and colors in that pic. Found this pic on All That Is Interesting recently.
Man, what a hot week it's been here in SoCal. Sweltering is a good word. Although I'm sure it's been this way just about everywhere. It is the middle of Summer, so there's that about it.
I think I'm going to drop some more theology on you tonight, so if that's not your bag, or if you lack the patience at the moment, I won't be offended if you stop now. Thanks for dropping by; next time I'll bring the goofy nonsense...
So tonight's topic could be considered the next in my series of rants that appear to be calling into question some rather basic orthodox tenets of the widely-accepted Christian gospel. I hope you don't mind my contemplating them. I'm certainly not trying to talk myself out of my faith, or be disrespectful... I'm just having a hard time squaring certainly widely-embraced gospel concepts with both logic and scripture. It isn't the Bible or certain scripture I'm chewing on, but rather how they are presented, and certain conclusions that have been drawn by them and offered as truth.
Tonight's Topic: That Should Have Been Me
On the way to church this morning, a song was playing on the local Christian radio station as we drove. I've tracked it down just now, since I want to discuss the lyrics, and ask some questions. The song is called Should've Been Me and the artist is Citizen Way. Here is the pertinent section (the chorus, I believe).
It should've been me, it should've been us
Should've been there hanging on a cross
All of this shame, all of these scars
Should've been stains that were never washed
Why do I hide, why do you try
Over and over and over again
I guess it just leaves saying thank God
It leaves me saying thank God, thank God
For the should've been
I've heard this concept a million times, in many different ways. "We are all filthy sinners who deserve eternal punishment, but thank God, Jesus died for us, forgiving us and granting us eternal life when we didn't deserve it." Pretty much the backbone of the gospel, yes? Just being human is enough to warrant eternal condemnation, and that it's deserved, because of God's sense of judgment and all that. Based, it is said, upon Adam's original disobedience.
I suppose my question (if it isn't obvious already) is why on Earth would God created us condemned, as if we had a choice in the matter? We deserve eternal punishment because... why, exactly? We are "born in sin and shaped in iniquity?" Did God create us that way, or does He create us holy but we become tainted (and thus worthy of death) just by being born? Can you hold a newborn, look at it in your arms, and say, "yes, this baby deserves eternal punishment in hell, just like the rest of us." Really? Seems ridiculous on the face of it, to me. But then the conversation would naturally segue into the idea of an Age of Accountability, and that's not where I want to stray in this post.
That should have been me on the cross, the song says. My stains should not have been washed away, but remain forever, as a testament of my filthy sinfulness, the song says. Which stains? The stains I was born with, or stains I acquired here? The song says all we can do is thank God for His mercy... in finding a way to bypass His own rules, I guess. He created us condemned, and then mercifully created a way for us to escape it if we want, but we don't deserve it.
So, what am I missing? How am I looking at this incorrectly? Is that an incorrect summary of that piece of the gospel puzzle? Born condemned? Born deserving eternal punishment? Where's the logic in that? But if we call on Him, He saves us, and then we get eternal (undeserved) reward instead? Where is the logic in that as well?
I'm apt to think it stems from incorrect conclusions drawn from certain verses that may have been talking about something else. Blanks filled in by well-intentioned folks trying to simplify a complex issue for the sake of mass consumption, perhaps. It reminds me of something my pastor said today about righteousness. Are there righteous people in the world, or not? Are we (as Christians) supposed to try and live righteously, or not? It may seem silly to ask such things, but he told us to ask fellow Christians that we know those questions, and see what they say.
The verse that always comes to mind is when Paul (in Romans) quotes the verse from Isaiah that says "there is none righteous, no not one." From this comes the idea that every person on earth, including those that have lived before us, are all unrighteous, and thus (I presume) unworthy of eternal life, etc. Meshes nicely with tonight's topic. HOWEVER, there are numerous places in the Bible which name righteous people (Noah, Abraham, the parents of John the Baptist) and also passages that admonish us, in no uncertain terms, to be/live righteously. Here's a couple:
So are there righteous people, or not? "We can't be righteous apart from God." Is every act of righteousness that a person (Christian or not) performs only God-inspired? Does God prompt every act of kindness that is performed, or is it possible that a person could, of his own accord, hold a door open for someone that has his/her arms full?
- Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times. (Psalm 106:3)
- Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him; for they shall eat the fruit of their doings. (Isaiah 3:10)
- But in every nation he that feareth him and worketh righteousness is accepted with him. (Acts 10:35)
So getting back to the initial idea of "that should have been me," don't you think that it would have been illogical for God not to provide a way of escape from the predicament He put us into (born condemned)? How is it possible that God could ever hold a person eternally responsible for the way He created him? That doesn't make sense to me. It is wonderful that He has "made a way of escape," but wouldn't a way of escape be expected as part of the plan? The other side of the "created condemned" coin?
And I better not get started on the idea of eternal punishment/rewards in and of themselves. Because of choices we make in a comparatively short time frame on earth, while living in an environment cut off from God, which we had no choice but to enter and live in, we receive eternal consequences that will never end or change. I have a feeling there's misunderstanding in that soup as well. Perhaps it's true, and it makes sense in a way that I'm just not seeing, or not programmed/capable of seeing, but for now, that makes no sense to me. It makes more sense that the punishments/rewards will be dynamic, forever contingent upon our day-to-day actions, forever. That would require a fresh, moment-by-moment relationship with God, with His involvement in our every decision, which is (I believe) the real goal in it all (not just a house in Heaven). The relationship is the goal, and the key to preventing rebellion forever, I think. THAT makes sense to me.
So, should that have been me upon the cross? If so, then why? Because I was born? Because of the way I was made? Or because of what I've done in my life that has missed God's best? Or another reason I'm missing?
What say you?
Dave the Puzzled
7 comments:
Romans 5 is an important passage for a couple of reasons.
1. It outlines the problem.
2. It explains the remedy.
It depends on what you think the story is about. Is man the center of the story, the be all and end all, the hero. Is he his own savior? Or is Jesus the hero? The savior? The redeemer?
Also, the righteous men you mention, doesn't Hebrews tell us their faith in God was the source of their righteousness, not their actions?
I've said before (and you did say bring both barrels!!!) that you tend to lean towards what sounds a little like works-righteousness. This reminds me of that - a sort of indignance that we can't pull ourselves out of the hole, that we can struggle and strive and work and yearn and our efforts can't appease God's wrath.
Now, I agree that my being on the cross accomplishes nothing except satisfying God's wrath towards MY sin. So, substitute me for Christ and no one benefits. So, in that respect, I get what the guy is saying, but I wouldn't say it that way.
But yeah, I'm not righteous. Not disciplines. Not selfless. Not pure. Not any of the fruit of the spirit - at least not all the time.
I understand your thoughts but can't leave a good reply because of sleep deprevation. :)
I have read this and am working on a response. But I'm with post-Calvinist, your thoughts sound very much like they have a works based background.
Thanks for the questions. I'll try to have you something asap.
Josh: I'll re-read Romans 5 and get back to you. Thanks for the bump. Not saying man is the center, I know Jesus is the hero... still, it seems like a case of creating a need for rescue, and then rescuing...
As far as Hebrews 11, trying to determine which came first, the faith or the works is kinda like a chicken/egg thing, but sort of illustrates my point, as far as righteousness... what we do is an integral part of the equation, I think. I'm thinking Ezekiel 3:20-21 at the moment...
Actually, I think I'll write up another blog post, rather than overload the comments section at this point, since I have a lot to say. Bottom line, I think initiating salvation is all God, but after that, we definitely have a part to play in maintaining it. If you want to call that "works", I won't quibble over semantics.
Michelle: How's that new baby of yours? Awesome, I hope! I better go check your blog and see if you've updating since giving birth.
Logan: I look forward to reading your response - thanks for taking the time.
Well, I feel like I'm going to need a lot of exceptions here and an actual face-to-face, but what the heck, here goes.
why on Earth would God created us condemned, as if we had a choice in the matter? God created us to glorify Him, not to be condemned. That is our sole purpose in this world. God made Adam to worship God. Using a Pauline metaphor, the pottery has no say in its purpose, whether it’s to be in the kitchen or in the study or intentionally shattered and used for something else. The potter is the one in charge of the purpose of the clay. The same is true for us. We’re all created to worship God; all of creation exists to worship God (birds, trees, stars, angels, etc.). Every knee will bow and confess Jesus Christ is Lord.
a way to bypass His own rules “A way to bypass His own rules.” I want to caution you on this statement. God does not bypass His own rules. To bypass rules would be to miss the mark of perfection and God would then be in sin. His Laws have been the same since the beginning, and every Law (i.e., rule) boils down to Jesus’ statement in Matthew about the Commandments: Love God and Love Your Neighbor as Yourself. Asking questions is healthy and needed (and sadly neglected by the masses), but I can’t help but give a word of warning. Don’t let this mindset turn you into a cynic.
Where's the logic in that? God defies logic. His thoughts are not our thoughts. In fact, His thoughts are so far above our thoughts that there’s no possibility to remotely understand them. He mercifully gives us the Spirit to read and understand His Word (see 1 Corinthians 1-3 and Isaiah 40:28). Thus, sadly, there are going to be things that we’ll never really understand and we have to take satisfaction in knowing that God does understand. What does that mean? To me it means that there are some things that I’m never going to know, even after I die and am in the presence of God. I realize that I am a finite being in a relationship with the infinite one. I am limited, He is omniscient. I live in the present; He exists outside of time. I live in the physical; God lives in the metaphysical/spiritual. There are just things that we do not and cannot know, and whether I’m okay with that or not, it is what it is.
(Aside: it almost seems like you have a double standard here with this issue. You don’t want the standard, fall back answers that “His ways aren’t our ways”, but whether you want it or not surely you accept that? We may want to understand more, but our understanding is limited to the confines of this life.)
Is every act of righteousness that a person (Christian or not) performs only God-inspired? Yes, every act of goodness/righteousness that we do is from God (James 1:17. In fact, I’d recommend all of 1 John here as well, bearing in mind that all love stems from God.) Even the simplest thing that a person does is only done because God grants us the ability to do it. It is God alone that gives us the very breath in our lungs (how often do we take that for granted?) and we are incapable of doing any good without Him because of our internal drive to rebel.
How is it possible that God could ever hold a person eternally responsible for the way He created him? God did not create us in sin. We brought that on ourselves through our rebellion. We are held eternally responsible because every creature is aware of God and His invisible attributes and no one has an excuse (Romans 1:20).
a fresh, moment-by-moment relationship with God, with His involvement in our every decision, which is (I believe) the real goal in it all (not just a house in Heaven). The relationship is the goal… Yes! That is exactly the purpose of sanctification. Adam walked with God in communion and had a relationship. That relationship was broken, and only the blood of Jesus allows us to reform those ties. A relationship is dynamic and a lifestyle, not just a single action.
So, should that have been me upon the cross? If so, then why? Yes, that should have been us, because all of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God demands that sin be atoned by bloodshed and death. Either we pay that price ourselves with eternity separated by God and eternally dead, or Jesus pays that price for us and we live in heaven forever. When does that sin take place in us? Only God knows, and I’m perfectly content in staying ignorant of these mind-blowing theologies.
Related to this is kind of how I think of salvation. Salvation, to me, is an already but not quite yet kind of thing. I am saved by Jesus’ blood, but I’m not saved from anything until the point of my earthly death, when Jesus’ intercession literally saves me from hell.
Wow, that's almost 900 words. So, applicable warnings and sympathies and the like. Thanks for the thoughts you've put me through these past few days. Have you done much study on this, through commentaries, etc.?
You said:
So getting back to the initial idea of "that should have been me," don't you think that it would have been illogical for God not to provide a way of escape from the predicament He put us into (born condemned)? How is it possible that God could ever hold a person eternally responsible for the way He created him? That doesn't make sense to me. It is wonderful that He has "made a way of escape," but wouldn't a way of escape be expected as part of the plan? The other side of the "created condemned" coin?
I say: Here's how I see it, God doesn't create us "condemned" .. He created Adam perfectly as our spokesperson, so to speak, for humanity (whatever Adam did, we would have done also) but because Adam sinned, part of the consequences are that people now inherit a sin nature. God doesn't "cause" this, it's a result of the fall. Yes, we aren't born condemned even though we are born with a sin nature, we aren't worthy of condemnation until we sin (sin=death). And when we do sin, we do it of our own will, we are not forced to...even tho because of our sin nature we are always drawn to sin rather than righteousness. Because we all freely choose sin, and God knew we would, He made a way of escape for some, instead of condemning all which would have been completely just. Hope this makes sense, typing in a hurry. :)
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